Rio and Beth, London

Rio Holland and Beth Heggarty are co-founders of Pam Pam in Shoreditch; the UK’s first sneaker and streetwear store aimed solely at women. Launched in 2015 after the pair saw a huge gap in the streetwear market – “We found it quite mad that there wasn’t something already available to women in this kind of capacity” – the store has since grown hugely in popularity and notoriety, both via their Instagram and lifestyle blog, and offline. In 2020, the store dropped their own take on the adidas Originals ZX 1000. We headed over to the central London based Pam Pam HQ to pick the two founders’ brains .

We love the community you’ve grown with Pam Pam. Can you tell us what drove you to launch the store?

We just saw this huge opportunity to create a dedicated space for women, which had the best selection of sneakers and clothing and lifestyle in a really curated way. There are so many men's streetwear stores that exist and almost nothing for women. As soon as we opened, we started hearing the feedback of “oh my gosh, I can't believe that this now exists”, and “this is great. I've been looking for something like this, there's only been Naked in Copenhagen that I've been able to get my sneakers from”, and “finally, there's a place in the UK!” I think that, after hearing that kind of feedback, we thought, “Oh, great, cool, we're doing something really different and we're making people happy here”. 

That must feel good!

It does feel good to be part of that whole movement - to be one of the first stores to be doing it, to be leaders in that field. That certainly makes us happy. We’re grateful, because we’ve been into sneaker wear for a really long time, and now we have finally found our place. The feedback that we have gotten and the relationships that we've made with a lot of the brands are also really, really special. In a way, they give us another drive to keep doing what we're doing, because they understand the concept and continue to support us, and so we want to give back to them. The majority of the brands got us right away and saw that there was an opportunity to create content through this women's only lens in a way that they weren't able to do very often, authentically. So that's really cool.

Can you tell us more about your experience of brands and how they tend to approach women as consumers in streetwear? 

It's gotten a little bit better, but from a buying point of view when we used to buy a product and we'd say, “Oh, cool. So how has this been performing for women?” and sportswear brands would go, “well, we don't really know. It's been doing this well for men, but we don't really know about women”. So that's a bit of a bummer. Even when you'd see campaigns or assets that have been brand made, for the longest time you'd only see men wearing them. 

And do you think this is changing?

It has slowly but surely just started to change. An example is the Bedwin and the Heartbreakers collection that Vans has just done [we interviewed Masafumi from Bedwin and the Heartbeakers for the work]. Obviously Bedwin and the Heartbreakers is for men, but they did their campaign assets on some women. So you finally got to see “okay, you are consciously thinking of marketing this towards women now.” Whereas that never used to be a thing. What often happens is there'll be a campaign developed specifically for women and one that's developed for the man, and it was so nice that with the Bedwin and the Heartbreakers collection that Vans did, that they just treated everybody the same. Levi's is another brand that does that actually very well. It shoots men and women exactly the same way. It’s exciting that some of the brands are starting to figure out that women really do wear these things. 

And what has Pam Pam’s approach been to helping make space for women in the streetwear industry?

We wanted to reintroduce streetwear because when we first opened at that time, there weren't a whole lot of opportunities for women. For a man that'd be an Air Max one in a million colours, and for a woman that'd be three and it'd be purple, pink, or purple and pink.  We also really wanted to make sure that our appeal and scope was as wide and as big as possible. We wanted to welcome all of the people in; from the sneaker wearers who just want a walking shoe, to the sneaker girl who loves buying one every couple of weeks, to the ones who really love the hot products and want to join the raffles and all that sort of stuff. 

It was really important for us to create this, and to also show the brands that you don't have to just focus on the younger generation. Of course, focusing on that younger generation makes them customers for life, but there is a huge range of women that wear sneakers. At Pam Pam we get older women - 60 plus - coming from West London over to East London into the store and spending so much time there and actually saying out loud, “This is so great. I feel so comfortable here”, because otherwise they just have Selfridges or something where it's really hectic, and you may not get the same kind of service...

Where does Pam Pam sit within this streetwear influence?

We just live outside of streetwear a little bit, because we're still the only women's store in the UK and so we just do what we do. It's easy, and it's made easier because there's no real comparison to us. It just feels like whatever we're doing is right for us. We sort of exist on our little planet to a degree and we don't really care what other people are doing. Because we are this place and the way we present ourselves is just really, really open, and we do part street and we do part other stuff, hype hasn't really impacted us. But I am so frustrated when it comes to all of these hype products.

Why frustrated?

So, with this hype streetwear stuff, a lot of brands are just focusing on their big name collaborations and perhaps not putting focus into inline things, or just really excellent high level product. Everybody's really stuck on this collab thing, and consumers are really stuck on that level as well. What's interesting is that - in some cases - the collab products are not necessarily very good and they don't sell very well! But the larger public wouldn't necessarily know that. Just because you slap somebody's name on it doesn't mean it's been well designed and it's well curated and that's a real shame. Because it should be excellent. 

So brands have a responsibility to make sure that their hype products are actually well-made.

Exactly. There are so many creatives that these brands could work with - creatives who would just die to make a capsule collection - and then some of the big names just fail. It's so disappointing. Displaying all these bad products as a retailer also, you feel like you're part of this machine of wastefulness, and that’s not good alongside being socially conscious. This consciousness around how things are made speaks exactly in the opposite direction of hype.  If brands concentrate more on regular, basic products that are more accessible to people, there's more longevity in that for the brand as well. 

The word ‘longevity’ has cropped up throughout this project, especially in regards to sustainability. How do you think a brand like adidas can enter the realm of sustainability in a non-performative way? 

Consumers aren't stupid, particularly in this day and age. I think it would be nice if the brands just came at it with an awareness of, “Hey, we realise where this giant freakin’ sportswear brand that is manufacturing so much stuff, fast fashion, blah, blah, blah, we need to do what we can do to make a change. This is how we're doing it. Hey, come follow us”. It should be said in that kind of regard.  

Sustainability shouldn’t be done by big brands in a way that makes it look like it's a marketing technique, but more that they inherently understand their responsibility. What I really appreciate is when a brand has got a plan that “this is what they're going to do by this stage, and then by this stage, this is what we'd like to do.” I think just by admitting that they are at fault, and that they're currently doing things wrong, but that this is how they want to change it, as a consumer - you're going to have so much more belief in that company than one that isn’t honest about the process. 

Transparency is key! Have you seen anything from adidas regarding sustainability?

adidas used to have this brilliant programme back in the day - I don't know if they do it anymore - but it was an ugly series. They used to make shoes cut up from old shoes and then put them together and some looked really ugly. With sustainability the shoe still has to be really good. It can't be some ugly piece of shit shoe that's completely ethically produced.

We agree. What else would you like to see happen in streetwear, moving forward? 

Moving forward in streetwear, I’d definitely like to see even more female focus, if that's possible. I also hope that the scope becomes super, super wide, and is open to everybody; that we are going to see more older people wearing this stuff, as well as younger people wearing this stuff, as well as the LGBTQI+ community that aren't necessarily overtly LGBTQI+. But just, every kind of spectrum wearing streetwear and being comfortable in streetwear and represented in streetwear. And that it's not looked at as a marketing point, or whatever; it's just naturally what it is. That would be really nice.

Is that what true inclusivity means to you – something natural, and ‘just is’?

Yes. At Pam Pam, for example, the people we have access to - our community, when we reach out to creatives and stuff - we don't ever need to make these weird, corporate decisions about how we need to pick a person that's like that or like this, because our community is so diverse. 

How can a big brand that perhaps has not been so diverse reach that point?

I think it's important for those much bigger brands that aren't diverse and don't exist in that diverse space to purposefully showcase more diversity to begin with. At first, we’ll be saying it will feel weird and contrived, and like they're just jumping on the bandwagon, but then, you know, eventually you will get to this space where it's just accepted. It's completely normal. Because I think with true inclusivity it has to be part of that brand's culture, and who they are. It has to be in your DNA for it to feel real. So, it's not just working on marketing campaigns; it’s developing diversity, genuine diversity within the culture of their businesses and infrastructure.

And how could a brand like adidas, for example, help support women within streetwear, specifically? 

I guess from a personal point of view, it would be excellent to see even more from female brands, because they definitely exist. I'm sure there's a load out there that that we don't even know about these, these streetwear brands that are female led that are doing great things, but perhaps it would just be great to have a bit more of a focus on finding where they are and putting them in Hypebeast and in Highsnobiety, and giving them a blast. One thing that we've also thought about is reaching out to other female communities or female stores around the world and really showcasing that there is a community. I’d really like to pursue connecting with other female focused or female owned brands, or female focused or female owned stores, or artists and stuff. We want to build an even bigger, stronger female, worldwide, global streetwear community; it would be a cool thing. 

That would be such a cool thing. Let’s switch topics for just a moment – you’ve mentioned adidas a lot, but we’re really keen to hear how you feel about the brand on a broader scale. What does adidas mean, to you?

adidas have built such an incredible culture over their time with who works with them, but also with their consumers as well. It's incredible. adidas try their best for the best and that really has come across in such a humble, but yet driven sort of a way, and they talk about their history in such a lovely way. I mean, it's such a rich history. And they always give nods to the right people, where their inspiration came from, and they're keen to keep the legacy going for every generation that keeps happening, so I think that's quite special.

And how would you compare adidas to Nike?

adidas always seem to be considered to be number two - they're the underdog compared to Nike - but I love that they're always trying to give things a go and looking at things from different perspectives. It makes them quite flexible. 

We’ve always said for adidas to be small, so Nike can be big!

Right! They're not rigid. They seem quite fluid and adaptable. Also, adidas has been around for way longer than Nike. You know, they've been doing this since 1949. And they have always been a little bit more like “sit down. Let's have a chat”. Adi Dassler himself used to directly go to athletes or invite them to him to say, “Please tell me about what your experiences are. I want to know every detail of what you feel what you want different in your shoe, what would be better, what would you know?” So, with adidas, I think there's that culture of really listening, right from the get-go. 

And what about Nike?

Well, that's not necessarily where Nike kicked off from. They sort of kicked off from “we’re the best in running shoes, we’re the best, we’re the best, we’re the best”. Nike have this sort of aggression behind them. adidas are very good at being naturally great at what they do and just relying on that to happen, whereas Nike really punch people in the face with how good they are and what they're doing. Maybe adidas really need to just put on a bit more of a display of “No, no, we've been around longer, and this is why we're way cooler and this is our history”.  I think adidas may have lost touch in terms of protecting that culture and I think maybe even adidas would admit that themselves to be honest. 

What do you think adidas can do to tap back into that culture; to protect and reclaim it?

The best way forward is just honest messaging. Honest and considered messaging. People love a story; people really have time to hear something out. adidas know that they've got really good products and stories -  they just need to rely on the culture that already exists in the communities to tell those stories.  adidas has broken down barriers naturally in the past but they need to talk about it a bit more. Talk about it more, be in that space that Nike owns, really take it over and just say, “No, this is who we are. And this is what adidas really stands for”.  

We love that – telling stories is so important. Anything else? 

adidas also need to be considered with their partnerships and who they work with on such a basic level, to really create those movements in the same way that those movements had organically happened like within the New York hip hop scene. Like, with somebody like Missy Elliott. It authentically exists at the moment, but it's just kind of happening to adidas accidentally. The thing that they haven't mastered is being part of that incubation.

This has been an incredibly inspiring and interesting chat. Do you have any parting words of wisdom for adidas?

In all honesty, we would love to see adidas change the game in the streetwear side of things. They deserve to really be there, and they definitely can get there.  We love adidas as leaders, but it's like, “do they see themselves as leaders as much as other people do?” No doubt Nike were influenced by adidas or by Reebok or by New Balance or by Converse, all of these brands that came way before them. It would be such a brilliant thing if adidas could come back in and land on top and own it, just really freaking take the rug out from under Nike and own it. It's not impossible, for sure. We love you, adidas!